About poncho tarps, bivies, and an expanded 3 season SUL kit I made a gear list for. Response to Sean - YouTube subscriber

Hey everyone. I wrote up a pretty long reply to a subscriber’s question (original emailed question included whole below —his text  shown with **** text **** throughout to structure my answer), and half way through I thought others might benefit from the discussion. So I’m reproducing the question and answer here for you in case you want to read more about some of the items in my kit/ my SUL/XUL dream wishlist. 
Cheers!

Hey bud,

I tried to answer below each section of your writings to keep it somewhat organized.

****The first questions I have are regarding the use of an MLD cuben poncho tarp. Based on the description and specs, it seems to have an extremely narrow width compared to other tarps.**** 

The Big Agnes poncho tarp (“pt”) I use currently is 4 feet 8 inches wide and 8 feet 4 inches long. The MLD pt is 4 feet 3 inches wide and 9 feet 2 inches long. 

So you gain a little length and lose a little width. Now a little less width means that you’ll have to pitch the MLD pt a little lower (doesn’t take much to make up for the difference in width) in most configurations to achieve the same coverage area as I get with my current tarp. The lower you pitch your tarp the more important it is that you use your hood as an attachment point with a guy-line to pull the tarp fabric up away from the ground to increase the living space inside of your shelter. 

Where that 5 inches of lost width is most going to affect you is where you use (rarely if ever) an extremely protective pitch like the mushroom fly. You can see Papa hiker set up the mushroom fly here - https://youtu.be/2pzGX61jyAc 

An extra 5 inches of width would make a pitch like this a little more comfortable, but it will still work. 

Otherwise I believe the pt will work just as well despite its 5 inch deficit.

You’ll always have one side that’s more open with a poncho tarp in the more comfortable pitches. The cave and improvised lean to are my go to pitches in rain. Here’s a blog post I put together on how I pitch - http://www.littlelifehappy.com/2018/03/poncho-tarp-and-bivy-setup-pictures-how.html?m=1

****Do you believe that it would provide adequate rain protection in "tarp mode"?****

In my experience a pt gives adequate protection in tarp mode. Even though most of the pitches you use are going to be open on at least one side, it works. 

If you’ve ever stood under a covered pavilion with no walls, you’ll know that you are kept dry despite the fact that the sides of the pavilion are open. 

Now when the wind is blowing, you’ll usually find a dark line where the rain has made its way in underneath the roof into the protected space. How far the rain can get in under the roof is a function of the strength of the wind and how high the roof is.

If the roof is very high and the wind is very strong, it might as well not be there as the rain gets blown straight through the pavilion. 

If the roof is lower, closer to the ground, the space inside the pavilion will always be more protected. You’ll see the dark wet line doesn’t make its way in very far. 

Check out this Instagram post of my setup after a heavy  rain storm one night. https://instagram.com/p/BjUg475AZGA/

You do have to be in touch with what is going on weatherwise, I think in order to make best use of a pt. If you do not know what the weather is going to be like, and/or if you don’t yet have a good feel for when bad weather is coming, You will want to use a more protective pitch like the cave or improvised lean to. It’s worth looking at windy.com for a general idea, and seeing through online maps what direction the prevailing winds travel. In the southeast, for example I know that storms usually come from the southwest. In the mid-Atlantic states I knew weather primarily came from due west. And so on.

On the nicest nights you’ll be able to pitch the tarp flat and high, only worried about keeping the dew off. On the nastiest nights you’ll need to be thoughtful about what side of your shelter is open and which side will block the wind by being staked down to the ground. 

**** Are there only limited ways you can pitch it? I'm not experienced at all with tarps and bivys, but I'd really like to learn. What is your advice for a newbie like myself with regard to using that particularly small MLD cuben poncho tarp? I can easily picture myself getting soaked due to my lack of experience with this type of setup. Lol

Next question(s)... ****

You could get soaked if you don’t set up properly. But if you pitch your pt low, with the hood guy-lined to pull the fabric up away from you, and have a water resistant bivy for side-spray you’ll be quite alright.

****regarding the Borah cuben bivy... I'm curious about the specific reason why you listed this bivy in your dream wishlist instead of the slightly lighter Borah cuben "bug" bivy? Is it better to go with the cuben bivy with the argon top fabric instead of the full bug mesh top? How much extra protection do you think it would provide based on your experience with bivys?****

I wouldn’t use a full bug mesh bivy with a small pt. 

When the wind gets really nasty and you’re worried that your shelter is going to get knocked down, you’ll be glad for the water resistant, dwr-treated argon top. Mesh won’t keep you dry from spray, neither will it protect you from mosquitoes unless you are able to use pullouts to keep it completely away from your body. 

Because of the pt’s usually small size (though the bivy is excellent for a variety of reasons), you do need the bivy for extra wind and rain-spray protection.

My current side-zip bivy has the argon top and it has done a very good job.

***** I'm trying visualize it all working together with such a small tarp. How do you think this setup would fair against unfavorable conditions such as heavier rain and/or windy weather? ****

If you look at my current SUL gear list where I make use of pt and bivy - https://lighterpack.com/r/1swtlg you’ll see that I say I only use this kit where the temperature low is consistently above 45 Fahrenheit. That’s because I’ve built in some room for failure:

What if the rain gets under the poncho? The bivy is water resistant (water proof gets to hot at these temps).

What if the water resistant fabric isn’t enough and I just get soaked (I’d just get out and fix the tarp pitch way before this happened, but okay)? The quilt I picked is synthetic and will stand up to some wetness without failing.

What if the quilt gets soaked, like I’m totally wet? Synthetic insulation can maintain up to 80% effectiveness when wet because its loftiness doesn’t disappear just because it got wet (loft is not dependent on being dry like down).

So where’s the line? In the unlikely event that I get soaked at night, how cold could I deal with getting? Basically the answer is summer nighttime temperatures. If it got bad enough, let’s say I got wet and cold, I’d get up and hike in my rain gear until I got warm or found a better spot to setup. (Has never happend).

On the AT the lowest summer temps I’ve faced in 3 seasons were in Maine in July. It was in the upper 40s and raining. Super dangerous weather.

That’s the line I wouldn’t advise anyone cross with this kit without adding a waterproof bivy instead. (Different conditions, different kit, more insulation, etc.).

There should be a number of clips showing the pt being used in the rain in my post hike pt review video - https://youtu.be/yGbPtizo6uE (can start at 36:37 in video to just see some setups/use on trail).

****My last set of questions deal with warmth. I, unfortunately, tend to get cold easily. Would a MLD Spirit 48* quilt be suffient for a cold sleeper like myself even on cool summer nights out on the trail? BTW, I also love the idea of using the Torrid synthetic "puffy" pants and jacket in conjunction with the synthetic quilt for colder weather. This modular sleep system seems to be another brilliant concept! I am just curious as to what kind of tempurature range I could comfortably sleep using that system. What are your thoughts? ****

I’ve tested the spirit 48 down to freezing - https://youtu.be/Q5L83DYjRRg and for me I’d say that with the my current kit that’s my personal extreme low rating. It would keep me alive below but I wouldn’t be happy, and for safety reasons (like maybe getting soaked) I don’t go below 45+ degrees with the whole kit.

I’m a warm sleeper, and on the coolest nights this last summer (2018 - VT notably) I was pushing the limits of the bag on two nights, wearing my windbreaker/2-layer rain jacket to bed as well. 

If you are a cold sleeper I’d definitely bump up to the spirit 38 (or similar 40 degree quilt). The weight savings would not be worth the risk to your comfort and enjoyment. Some nights you’ll be too hot, but you can easily push the quilt aside and/or just use the bivy as a sleeping bag (I have to do this around 68 Fahrenheit lol)

I would LOVE to try out the torrid gear in the dream wish list to extend the seasonal range of my SUL kit into more of a ‘3 season kit’. https://lighterpack.com/r/3k8foc - the weak link in that gear list, I think is the sleeping pad. In colder weather I’d probably swap the pad out for an inflatable like the Neoair, as a full length foam pad isn’t much lighter. With a little torso pad like that, you could pile up leaves/spruce boughs/find a thick bed of moss to lay down on for more ground insulation where needed, but on a longer hike you won’t want to deal with that all the time. You just want to blow up a mattress and go to bed. (It would be okay by comparison for an ultralight survival kit maybe.)

With a neoair x lite instead of the foam torso pad and a winter fleece buff instead of the summer UV buff I think I could probably hike with that kit down into the 20s. 

As is, I could probably take it down into the 30’s, but the torso pad is a serious concern. Maybe I’d add a second torso pad to link up somehow (rather than purchase a full length - then I could use one as a pack frame sheet and one as a sit pad!)

****Lastly, I'm also curious to know why your dream list includes a Copperfield windbreaker jacket but not the wind pants. Can you please expand on that? Also, would just a UV buff provide suffient warmth in colder weather since the Torrid jacket you listed is the (hoodless) version? ****

In significantly cooler weather the hooded version of the torrid would probably be the way to go, but the hood would be overkill for most summer conditions where a UV buff has done a good job for me. 

The Copperfield wind jacket (with a hood) (instead of the 2-layer OR helium 2 rain jacket I used in my kit this summer) provides a little extra warmth boost to the kit. The hood helps the buff keep my head warm, the jacket can be worn to bed for a little warmth/comfort boost. The wind jacket can be worn out into light rain where I have my shelter set up and need to go to the bathroom away from camp. 

No wind pants in the list is an interesting point. I’ve hiked in some serious cold with just shorts, so long as I was on the move lol. Wind pants/ rain pants are nice, but not really ‘necessary’. St least not in warmer conditions.

When I stop for a break/make camp, or when I’m on a cold and windy ridge line, I need something to protect my legs in cooler weather. 

When it’s raining I just let my legs get wet and keep my leg insulation dry for when I make camp.

In camp or on a ridge line a pair of synthetic puffy pants like the torrid pants is great, I don’t need the wind pants too.

But why the torrid jacket AND the Copperfield wind shirt? The torrid jacket (or what it would replace- my light 2 layer rain coat from this last summer) really shines with the summer kit (no added torrid gear/etc). I’ve changed it to be included (as a light rain jacket) with my summer kit instead of being marked as a 3 season addition like it was originally after seeing how I made use of my light jacket this last summer for reasons I mentioned above.

In the colder months it’s amazing to wear something like a windshirt or light rain jacket when it’s super chilly and you are on the move. A puffy jacket is way too hot, and it would get all wet with sweat (not ideal for camp later right?) The wind shirt lets you hold on to a little extra body heat and cuts the bitter cold winds. It can be hard to manage how hot you get when you’re hiking hard, no matter how cold it is. 

In the summer a wind shirt can be just right, the Goldilocks of layers, for a cooler night or morning around camp. I wouldn’t wear it in the move for summer, as it would just be a camp/ break/ windy ridge/line jacket.

****I apologize if these questions aren't quite worded correctly. I hope these questions don't come across the wrong way. I am just really curious about potentially switching to a similar setup, but I have my personal concerns. I would truly appreciate any response you can provide to these questions. ****

No worries man. I think there are some holes in what’s presented sometimes in any gear list or discussion that warrant further explanation, which is where I think some of the questions about the dream wish list may originate from. The potential addition of a winter buff vs a summer UV buff, and maybe the ‘winter sleeping pad’ vs the summer torso length are the primary examples of this that come to mind where not everything is covered that could be. 

Personally, I’d start with the list as is and test it out at progressively lower temperatures to see where I’d start having to make changes like this.

But at the time of writing an article or putting together a for-fun gear list I just have to finish up the work at some point :) 

****Thanks, 

Sean ***

Thank you for writing me, I like to talk about this kind of stuff :) 

I’m thinking about writing a super detailed little guide to tarp and bivy ultralight and SUL kits (like a hyper focused version of my original equipment and hiking guide), and the fact that you are interested and writing questions to me is encouraging that maybe it would be worth it to write it.

Best,

Curt (SongBird Ultralight)

On Nov 23, 2018, at 12:16 PM, Sean S. <Sean(redacted)> wrote:

Hi Curt! Thank you for replying so fast to my Youtube comments. I apologize for the delay with sending this email. I have some gear questions I'm hoping you can help answer for me. I'm very curious to try going the tarp and bivy rout. In my current setup, I'm using a Zpacks Hexamid solo tent and an EE Enigma 20* down quilt. However, I love your idea of really mutipurposing your gear by going with a poncho tarp and synthetic "poncho" quilt. This is absolutely brilliant! The first questions I have are regarding the use of an MLD cuben poncho tarp. Based on the description and specs, it seems to have an extremely narrow width compared to other tarps. Do you believe that it would provide adequate rain protection in "tarp mode"? Are there only limited ways you can pitch it? I'm not experienced at all with tarps and bivys, but I'd really like to learn. What is your advice for a newbie like myself with regard to using that particularly small MLD cuben poncho tarp? I can easily picture myself getting soaked due to my lack of experience with this type of setup. Lol

Next question(s)... regarding the Borah cuben bivy... I'm curious about the specific reason why you listed this bivy in your dream wishlist instead of the slightly lighter Borah cuben "bug" bivy? Is it better to go with the cuben bivy with the argon top fabric instead of the full bug mesh top? How much extra protection do you think it would provide based on your experience with bivys? I'm trying visualize it all working together with such a small tarp. How do you think this setup would fair against unfavorable conditions such as heavier rain and/or windy weather? 

My last set of questions deal with warmth. I, unfortunately, tend to get cold easily. Would a MLD Spirit 48* quilt be suffient for a cold sleeper like myself even on cool summer nights out on the trail? BTW, I also love the idea of using the Torrid synthetic "puffy" pants and jacket in conjunction with the synthetic quilt for colder weather. This modular sleep system seems to be another brilliant concept! I am just curious as to what kind of tempurature range I could comfortably sleep using that system. What are your thoughts? 

Lastly, I'm also curious to know why your dream list includes a Copperfield windbreaker jacket but not the wind pants. Can you please expand on that? Also, would just a UV buff provide suffient warmth in colder weather since the Torrid jacket you listed is the (hoodless) version? 

I apologize if these questions aren't quite worded correctly. I hope these questions don't come across the wrong way. I am just really curious about potentially switching to a similar setup, but I have my personal concerns. I would truly appreciate any response you can provide to these questions. 

Thanks, 

Sean